banning system (what happened to just kicking and asking people?)

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

(moved post to its own thread, since it does deserve that)

guys.. I really got fired up last week... I was lit on.

But I'm back now. I'm calm. Im sick with the flu. And I want to talk.
Can some people speak out their mind please.

Check this poor lad out, banned 3 times (just as often as myself).
Sometimes you're lucky... and you can knife unnoticed (or any other infraction).
Sometimes you have a decent admin, that knows banning this chap for 1 day will hurt him enough to make him stop his actions for a while.

And sometimes you have a 'dick' of an admin, who thinks, fuck this... im 18 and I make the rules and you abide by it, you abide me. I'm the admin!
And you get a ban for a whole week.

https://bans.unloze.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:0:11597700&advType=steamid&Submit

This isn't how you treat your clients. You should make up a rulebook and set a banlenght accordingly by each infraction.

It is not in Unloze best intention to ban people for these kind of periods.

https://bans.unloze.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:0:141587851&advType=steamid&Submit
This poor chap got banned for longer than 3 months in total. I'd give him a medal if he'd return after that.

I can be a pretty jerk sometimes, I know.

But I merely return with the same fire that some people at Unloze tend to use, and people that 'go against a particular group' get dealt with.

In my opinion anyone under the age of 25 isn't fit for admin rights, no offends but you just aren't mature enough to deal with these kind of emotions and responsibilities. I do understand it might be hard to find enough people over 25 on this platform tho.

Anyway my opinion is that the way Unloze and its admins (and some admins in particular) tend to organise and policy its server will not provide the community in its best interest eventho them telling us with any kind of words that whatever they do, is the way to do it.

This clan doesn't take any feedback and only relies on a specific group of people and whatever they want and need.

Basic, the strategy that Unloze uses now is the longer a player plays on a server, the more chance he might step out of order and receives bans, which stack up. RESULTING in a system that doesn't reward long playing regular public but rather punishes them and pushing people away.
Anyone not seeing this is a blind man or incapable of self-reflect.

What happened to just kicking people from the server and ask them to stop doing what they are doing? "You might get a whole lot more respect and noses turned in the same direction".

 

[D()G@N]

https://bans.unloze.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:0:141587851&advType=steamid&Submit
This poor chap got banned for longer than 3 months in total. I'd give him a medal if he'd return after that.

mate this guy has more than 13 bans in total. he will never learn and i dont want him to come back and keep trolling. we should consider a perma ban tbh.

 

[D()G@N]

https://bans.unloze.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:0:11597700&advType=steamid&Submit

however here i kinda agree that 1 week is a little too much for the 3rd ban

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

In addition to my original post.

If I get fined for driving 20 km to fast I get fined. I must pay 100 euro. If it happens again I must again pay 100 euro.
Only with greater infractions like driving with alcohol or drugs do people get punishments that stack.

At Unloze however, even the smallest infraction stacks up, in the end resulting up to months of banlengths. I'd be really done with Unloze after such treatment. I cannot think anyone else receiving such wouldn't.

I really am so much against this policy, you don't even want to know. Eventho I never received such lengths, I cannot comply with a community dealing in such harsh complicance system to its own users.

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

mate this guy has more than 13 bans in total. he will never learn and i dont want him to come back and keep trolling. we should consider a perma ban tbh.

I know what you are telling, but for knifing. I cannot agree. Its not that much of a problem.
In my opinion its a minor infraction.

And as said, you might even get a better response by asking him. But thats not always a guarantee ofcourse.
In my opinion a ban should never exceed a day. Unless a person is using cheats or anything other like that.

banning someone for 1 day, already ruined him that game night. Which should be considered enough.

 

[D()G@N]

If I get fined for driving 20 km to fast I get fined. I must pay 100 euro. If it happens again I must again pay 100 euro.
Only with greater infractions like driving with alcohol or drugs do people get punishments that stack.

well if you want to translate that to ze crimes, we don't even ban for anything like that. driving 20km too fast is not a big deal and you dont really danger your surroundings. thats like not helping to defend on ze, you dont harm anyone, nor help.

but knifing zombies is like driving 100 km too fast while being drunk. you fucking ruin rounds by killing whole ct team and cause their loss.

tbh this comparsion is kinda dumb lmao

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

well if you want to translate that to ze crimes, we don't even ban for anything like that. driving 20km too fast is not a big deal and you dont really danger your surroundings. thats like not helping to defend on ze, you dont harm anyone, nor help.

but knifing zombies is like driving 100 km too fast while being drunk. you fucking ruin rounds by killing whole ct team and cause their loss.

tbh this comparsion is kinda dumb lmao

you have a point. it is actually kinda hard to draw a comparison to ordinary day life. but I tried. I do however tried to point out the validness or invalidness of stacking. Its all about the stacking.

 

[Ostkand]

In addition to my original post.

If I get fined for driving 20 km to fast I get fined. I must pay 100 euro. If it happens again I must again pay 100 euro.
Only with greater infractions like driving with alcohol or drugs do people get punishments that stack.

At Unloze however, even the smallest infraction stacks up, in the end resulting up to months of banlengths. I'd be really done with Unloze after such treatment. I cannot think anyone else receiving such wouldn't.

I really am so much against this policy, you don't even want to know. Eventho I never received such lengths, I cannot comply with a community dealing in such harsh complicance system to its own users.

That might be true for your country, but fines can definitely change. I really can't sympthatize with you here, if there was a flat 30 min ban for knifing some players would happily eat that ban.

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

30 mins sure.. probably. 1 day is something else tho. like I said. That tends to change the perspective cos you basicly cannot play anymore that evening. But Stacking?

 

[Ostkand]

30 mins sure.. probably. 1 day is something else tho. like I said. That tends to change the perspective cos you basicly cannot play anymore that evening. But Stacking?

Of course. It isn't just to punish the player, it's also for protecting the server and it's population. If you are on your 10th ban then you must have a serious lack of respect for the rules

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

even if that is in 2 years playtime? I'm trying to see if this can be seen from multiple perspectives.

 

[Ostkand]

even if that is in 2 years playtime? I'm trying to see if this can be seen from multiple perspectives.

You kinda have a point, but I'm not sure I would say that it is something that should have an impact on the length

I mean that would imply they are somewhat experienced and should know the rules

 

[Kaka]

If he has played for 2 years and has over 10 bans and is still trolling it's obvious that person hasnt learned their lesson and should have an increased ban

 

[ZeGaWa]

I'll try to cover as much as possible everything you said even if i'm currently on my Phone so it's a pain in the ass but you made a whole fat thread about it so it would be a shame to not reply to it.

So first you cant compare Unloze/ZE to irl a lot of things won't match and if you do then find propre example.

As said stacking punishment is something common in some country (here in France as example). So if you want to go on the irl road, the server is hosted in France so according to what you say we might follow French law.
And in France we use this even if you get fined, the price will change and you can even go to jail.

2nd, osty already said it, but stacking isnt also to punish the player since some of them will probably never understand.
I already saw a player say that he will wait for the ban to expire to join and do the same thing.
Just to ruin other experience.

So what do you want ? A player that join each 30min and ruin a whole round, since on some map its very easy as fuck to fucked up a whole round.

If we stack punishment it's also to protect those who want to play normally and enjoy the game while respecting the rules.

Like someone who drive normally on a highroad.
Imagine that case, your best friend drive at a normal speed on a road.
A guy drive way too fast and kill him, the Guy survive and get 1year jail.
Then go out after 1year.
Now your daughter drive at a normal speed, and the exact same Guy do the same thing and kill her by accident, he survive as well and get 1 year.
After 1 year he go out.
Now your wife drive at a normal speed and the exact same Guy drive again way too fast.
He kill your wife, survive, get 1 year of jail.

Dont you see a problem there ?
If no then you have a real problem and should reconsider how life and law really work.

Dont reply me : but 1 year for Killing dont exist wahwah, it's an example...

We have rules written on the forum, I invite you to read it.

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

@zagewa. I guess you make a valid point and I admire you're interest and energy to repond to this thread, even when online on your phone. thanks for your feedback.

 

[William! :D]

Oh this just makes me sooo upset so get ready for a long ass rant.

You blame all under 25 people for not being mature enough for decisions and you claim you come back all calm. But all I see is angled descriptions without context and a narrow minded mindset. This is the problem with letting people having opinions. Because they are opinions and not facts. People always put their emotions and opinions before facts and then don't even think about doing a tiny bit of research or find out the context and then they are supposedly be part of deciding? Why don't you take one more week off and come back when you are over 25 years old...

The first "poor lad" (ugh) you linked to. That is not his main account, it is an alt account. It's BTK. Who you ask? Of course you don't know. The ban was very well justified, he trolles on purpose and ruins, especially that time. Even on nide he got a ban for 4 weeks. I don't even know if his main acc is banned but I don't think so. You can't just link random bans, present them with your own made up context about poor people who unluckily banned. Yes, we admins make mistakes but we are also very aware of who is who and what everyone does. We global admins always follow up with these longer bans, check on the admins why they did it etc. We don't just let them be "18 year old dicks" who do things their own way. Nobody is allowed to go rogue (unlike in nide). When there is doubt in our admin discussions, I even check the demo recordings. Unlike you, I do my research.

A ban is more than a ban, it is also a warning. That is why the first bans are small and then the duration extended. Even in real life punishments are extended. The second guy. You know nothing about him and just decide that he is also done with playing. He came back from a 2 month ban and still decided to knife.

To YOU knifing may only be a small offence. You say that you are not motivated to come back after a ban. You know who else is not motivated to come back? People who have to deal with people like you who ruin the ruins. To you it's all fun an giggles, to me it's my game night ruined. It's such a bother to deal with. In fact, the purpose of these longer bans are not only to make them stop. It is also to make them leave if they do not learn. If we only give you a 30 min ban, your "game night" won't be ruined and you'll come in 30 min all happy and potentially do it again. And regardless of what you say, YES people do this. We have seen it over and over and over. So either they get a longer ban to learn and reflect or they leave. This is a utilitarian solution. The happiness of the majority. Deal with it.

I absolutely despice how you appeal to emotion in this thread and make it sound so dramatic. "already ruined him that game night". How selfish can you even be to say that sentence. There is nothing I agree with in this thread and nothing you say I sympathize with. You have no facts, no context, pure emotions, no admin experience and hence have no clue how handling bans and people have an effect on servers, random info to think that backs up your statements and the huge audacity to ruin other people's games and think it's a minor offence and expect me to have empathy that your game night is ruined? You make up random bullshit such as people under the age of 25 are not fit. According to you? Yourself? I assume you are over 25 then. I have met a lot of brilliant people younger than you, more mature and fit. People like you are the problem with democracy.

If I am frank, I don't give the bloodiest fuck if you decide to leave the server. I will not have empathy simply because you appeal to emotions and try to act respectful about your own misbehavior but show no respect to others. That shit is abusive and in real life equal to psychopaths. Delete this thread and go start your own server full of knifers.

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

@ William.
Firstly out of respect I did read what you have replied, cos you seem to have done the same.

quote: "I will not have empathy simply because you appeal to emotions and try to act respectful about your own misbehavior but show no respect to others. That shit is abusive and in real life equal to psychopaths. Delete this thread and go start your own server full of knifers."

Was I ever talking about my own behaviour/actions and its appropriate reaction to it at any given time in this thread?

Now go and do your homework. No I was not.
I was simply talking from the public, for the public. Albeit a minority one, cos most people do adherse to the rules.
I see it as open minded discussion.

How you, even without mentioning you or anyone personal by name can turn so personal, defensive and agressive tells me more about you to be honest.

I never asked you anything, and honestly. I don't give a f*ck about you neither. To me you're just a Swedish youngster wasn't it? That was lucky to get an admin position at some gaming community due to some friendlinks.

In my eyes just because of your reaction you aren't fit for the role, since you carry an affiliation with Unloze. (Thats an harsh opinion, which I may have)

Last but not least, its time to delete the :D from your name my man.. It Does Not Fit You.

Oh... and in a few years, or maybe sooner... this shit won't matter to you, me or anyone anymore, cos it will all be in the past. Nothing lasts.

 

[Tom]

Here we go.

Sometimes you're lucky... and you can knife unnoticed (or any other infraction).

It's not a matter of luck. There's a phrase in Russian "If you don't get caught, this is not your merit. This is our fault" (or "unfinished job", donno how to translate it in the most correct way).
Of course, admins are also people, they are the same as the regular players who want to play and want to have fun. The only difference is that they want to help the server, the community, and they've got all the tools to do their job (which they do on a voluntary basis). However, nobody is perfect and sometimes we may just enjoy the game, lead people, tryhard, chill with friends on discord, on steam, in chat, whatever. Being an admin doesn't necessarily imply sitting in specs and scrutinizing the actions of every 60 players, that's impossible. We want to enjoy the game and sometimes we cannot concentrate on everything. Instead of treating it in an understanding way, you see it as an opportunity to abuse. Like "I can do shit because admin is afk, y.o.l.o!". And if the admin turns out not to be afk and spots your breach of a rule, you get "unlucky". Sorry, but there's another Russian proverb: "No man is a thief in fact if not caught in the act". This is the logic of a criminal.

Sometimes you have a decent admin, that knows banning this chap for 1 day will hurt him enough to make him stop his actions for a while.

In fact, even a month or two is not enough for some people. They return and do the same thing over and over again. The ban length is (or, at least, should be) gradually increased, from the minimal 30 mins to a fucking eternity permanent ban.
If a person can't or doesn't want to understand what the admin team (and the whole community, since we have some kinda democracy here which is proved by your ability to propose and openly discuss changes) wants this person to stop doing (breaking the rules), this is this person's problems. It'd do more harm to keep such a person in the community than isolating them from it.

And sometimes you have a 'dick' of an admin, who thinks, fuck this... im 18 and I make the rules and you abide by it, you abide me. I'm the admin!
And you get a ban for a whole week.

I agree with you and Dogan that this 1 week ban was too much. But this is not how an UNLOZE admin thinks.
But whenever a banned player disagrees, he or she (sry, I forgot, there're no girls on the Internet) can make an unban appeal in a special forum. If you don't do it, we may conclude that you agree with the ban.

You should make up a rulebook

We already have it. https://unloze.com/threads/unlozes-rules.1080/
You should've found out more about the community and the way it works before discussing it.

https://bans.unloze.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:0:141587851&advType=steamid&Submit
This poor chap got banned for longer than 3 months in total. I'd give him a medal if he'd return after that.

Sora used to be a good, or at least, harmless guy a looooong time ago. Then he suddenly became toxic and began to break the rules. He did it so many times, he was kicked out from here. He had been ruining other people's gaming experience, they even began to complain about it.
So, do I understand you correctly that you justifying him means that you would do the same? If yes, now I get the point of this thread and why you are trying to change the rules.

In my opinion anyone under the age of 25 isn't fit for admin rights, no offends but you just aren't mature enough to deal with these kind of emotions and responsibilities

The age doesn't play the most decisive role here, imo. People are different. I've met 14 year-olds who were more intelligent and mature than some 25s and above. But these are exceptions rather than the rule, I agree. But it doesn't mean one should be categorical in this matter. Everyone should be treated individually. It's not like when you turn 25 you become smarter in just a moment, just in one day. It doesn't work like that.
Also, what kind of emotions are you talking about? If you were unable to bare the, let's say, "emotional pressure", when you were, for example, 18, doesn't mean the others can't do it. "It's only a game, why do you haffta be mad?"
Speaking about responsibilities, I must say that being an admin is not the hardest responsibility in my life. If you think that real life responsibilities are somewhat easier to cope with, then you don't have enough of them, and you are not the person to talk about "maturity". And believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

This clan

This is not a clan.

doesn't take any feedback

Your post is not a feedback. This is nonsense. If an idea is good enough, it will be accepted.

the strategy that Unloze uses now is the longer a player plays on a server, the more chance he might step out of order and receives bans

I know lots of old players who don't have any troubles with the admin team. If one day you become toxic like Sora and you begin to do shit, you have to blame yourself, not the admins. Some two sentences ago you were talking about maturity and age, but what I see now is a complete nonsense. This is pure аutism (no offence).

RESULTING in a system that doesn't reward long playing regular public but rather punishes them and pushing people away.

Look, I have no bans. I joined UNLOZE in summer 2016, and I am quite an old player. And I'm an admin. This is my reward – the trust the admin team and the community have reposed in me. And I'm not alone here.
There're lots of good people among regular players. If they don't want to be admins or our admin team is already established, how can we reward them? Giving VIPs? Who is going to pay for the server maintenance then? Maybe you? If you don't break the law in real life, how do you get rewarded?

What happened to just kicking people from the server and ask them to stop doing what they are doing?

Some people don't understand it. Sometimes I kick people when I'm not quite sure. Sometimes I even warn them. It depends on the situation.
But just kicking people means that if you disconnect, they are likely to do the same shit when there's no active admins and they, as you say, feel lucky. You need... No – you have to make the punishment harder every time before this person understands that he can't do shit prohibited by the rules. That's a job an admin does. You clearly have no clue about being an admin and how things work.
Also, giving the same amount of ban won't do anything. A player may just connect to a server, play there, eventually get bored, decide to disconnect and ruin a round just for fun. He gets banned for 30 minutes, right. But what does it mean for this person, if he had already decided to disconnect? The next day he will do the same. There're lots of such people who think "Ok, they will ban me but it will expire before I want to connect again anyway, so I can act like an asshole". And justifying such people doesn't make you any good.

 

[William! :D]

@Tom that was beautiful... promoted!

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

I agree with you William. What Tom has written is a truly superb reaction. No Offense taken Tom. And neither from William. All I want is to check if the rulebook is in order and everyone agrees with how the community is operated. Often we take things for granted and thats why I started this discussion.

I do believe some people are beyond saving. I however don't count myself one of them. I think there's is a greater chance that in a specific time I'm not interested in Counter Strike anymore. It's been dwelling some time already and that might also be the reason I try to connect with the people behind the server.

Alas, thanks for all your imput.