2024 consensus on multiple aspects of zombie escape

[jenz]

So originally in 2015 CT had 100 health and that was the case for several years until i believe dogan changed it to 125. this then became the norm for many years. many people probably associate it as an unloze thing the same way they might feel about the umbrella skins simply belonging here where as i myself don't really hold the same kind of attachments to them. SO yes i recently changed health back to 100 for the sake of maybe freshing modern settings a bit up again. The outcome of that has honestly been rather negligible. Therefore i think its appropriate once again to pull up a forum discussion. Several years ago i did give up on the idea because of experiencing too many shortcomings. Extreme amounts of 51% vs 49% voting that felt very frustrating and pointless.

I think times changed and at this point i would just like to achieve some form of consensus if possible with the currently active community being mostly represented by it. This is partly a vote and partly a discussion. I do prioritize the discussion more than the vote. a majority does not automatically mean an option wins due to shortcomings such as alt accounts and extremely inactive people giving input on things they are far away from. A vote is evaluated by if the person is considered active on ze. I will be doing multiple of these votes. but this one thread explains the overall mindset.

SO in this one in particular to start with as said its about CT's HP. I hope that some consensus can be achieved and used for the next upcomming year. Please tell me if i missed some obvious things to consider that should had been included in the vote instead. If there would be input that makes sense it will simply be included in an after following vote. just for the sake of making it a little scurrilous i am even adding the option to have health regeneration added for CT. This poll and all afterwards will be up for roughly 15 days.

In the end i hope to establish a somewhat new unloze that is ready to get into a better functioning 2025 in terms of population. Most things will still be the same but a few twists are turned here and there based on the users that are actively engaged with the server who express themselves by discussing here or at the very least just voting.

PS: obviously people can revote up until the very last minute if they want to. if after that point its neccesary there will be a follow up vote considered like a round 2 for this topic. Generally speaking that can be the case for this thread as well as the others that i am about to create right now.

 

[Pantcake]

ZE maps are balanced by the mappers around CTs having 100 HP by default. This matters when the maps have bossfights or environmental hazards that deal HP damage. Default HP being 125 provides a buffer to CTs that is not necessarily in line with the mapper's original vision for balanced gameplay on the map. This brings up an interesting point I now wonder about, so let me frame the question this way instead - why was CT default HP ever set to 125 in the first place? What was the reasoning, if any, given behind it? Because I would think that keeping default HP at the higher-than-average value of 125 is what needs to be justified, not bringing the default HP back down to the average of 100.

 

[Martin]

From what I can remember it all started with vips having 125 hp, as an incentive for people to buy vip, and then the other servers followed. Skip ahead a couple years and regular players got 125 hp too, along with all players getting no fall damage, instead of just vips. Can't remember which server started this whole thing.

 

[mini]

ZE maps are balanced by the mappers around CTs having 100 HP by default. This matters when the maps have bossfights or environmental hazards that deal HP damage. Default HP being 125 provides a buffer to CTs that is not necessarily in line with the mapper's original vision for balanced gameplay on the map. This brings up an interesting point I now wonder about, so let me frame the question this way instead - why was CT default HP ever set to 125 in the first place? What was the reasoning, if any, given behind it? Because I would think that keeping default HP at the higher-than-average value of 125 is what needs to be justified, not bringing the default HP back down to the average of 100.

Because of money, most likely. I know that in games (ze this case) where you offer any kinds of features like giving HP, no fall damage, more jump height or whatever people would want them to have an advantage than other players, especially if everyone is playing there, however those features might have made a negative impact on the servers with them, so players in general would want to play where they would see equality (aka no more advantage over p2w features) or where they would have better chances to WIN, like having VIP hp set for everyone so they would enjoy that too.

Regarding to the poll on THIS Thread, I'm voting 100hp for humans because it's gonna make players more aware of their surroundings and of the game, in short. It's cool to be more careful and have more hp and u might win because of that, but I believe this has made the average player experience too carried with the other players just over-carrying on maps. Think of santa as example, where people would actually be more aware when they shoot because they'd die in 2 hits instead of 3, which could make them play more safely and actually DO something in game in general.
I personally find boring most of the maps that are played because of the settings being not challenging anymore (I am also aware that it doesn't have to be like the most difficult settings but a spice up). Most wins are from easy settings and pro players carrying on maps. I want the casuals to shine and see more impressive wins that actually make the game worth playing & remembering for.
Note : I feel like this change might not be in favor for some people because they want other people to do it for them because that's literally what happens in these maps but people gotta play the game.....

- Voting 15000hp for zombies because the hp of the zombies is literally good enough to be modified, CONSIDERING we still have autosnipers that might not be removed in a while. Also included to the reason that I kinda want the settings a bit more aware to the player. Also they don't have that much of an impact. Debatable could be to set it to 12500 if people want, but less than 12500 no.
- Voting to keep the same custom ammunition as well, mainly because I don't like the idea of ONLY 1 weapon to be meta if other people want to use weapons they're already used with. Variety is important.
- Voting EQUAL votes during map vote because unfortunately it feels to the players with the most hours in their favor to play maps. (which sounds good if you're a regular but nowadays people join only for maps :/, which can ruin the overall health of the server. I personally liked jenz's idea with the mapboost but it feels like no players join until an event or some maps that everyone will join for.)

 

[machu]

ok so to answer pantcake properly in the past before 2019 the server used to have fall damage on all maps and 100 hp for everyone except the vips that had no fall damage and 200 hp
i don't really remember if they had any other advantage like jump height but that doesn't matter so in order to balance that out dogan decided to make the default hp 125 that is kinda
in between those values to make it fair for everyone i guess.
tbh having 125 doesn't change much and in fact most maps have a heal item that's gonna give you higher hp anyway,the only real game changing map the extra hp is massive is santa
other than that it just a tiny bit of help only on 20-30% of maps

 

[Rice]

I voted 100hp too. In general, I'm with mini in thinking that we need to spice up the game again. Most wins on casual maps (and even some on harder maps) are indeed just 2-5 ppl defending and the rest chilling at the door. Thats not a fun experience for anyone imo. And so, even though it's not relevant to this post, i also think knockback should be lowered a bit and maybe also ammo? I feel this will create a need for better teamwork and communication (ie. leaders - and honestly having good leaders is what makes the game interesting for new players imo).

 

[wilsonwillt]

ok so to answer pantcake properly in the past before 2019 the server used to have fall damage on all maps and 100 hp for everyone except the vips that had no fall damage and 200 hp
i don't really remember if they had any other advantage like jump height but that doesn't matter so in order to balance that out dogan decided to make the default hp 125 that is kinda
in between those values to make it fair for everyone i guess.
tbh having 125 doesn't change much and in fact most maps have a heal item that's gonna give you higher hp anyway,the only real game changing map the extra hp is massive is santa
other than that it just a tiny bit of help only on 20-30% of maps

I would heavily disagree on 125 hp not mattering, it can mean a lot more room for error on maps when fall damage is enabled such as POTC, that extra 25 hp can mean a lot looser play and give you more room to take damage for more speed. Similarly, newer players can tank more damage on maps like kitchen, predator (heal is almost never picked up so I'm not counting that item), halloween house, etc. Also I think a lot of new players may miss heal entirely as they are overwhelmed and don't know to group with the white orb. While 99% of ze players these days aren't new, I feel like the extra HP can help newer players incase they miss heal, or may die to fall damage and I voted for 125 hp as I feel like it insulates and improves the new player experience, and it doesn't really detract from more experienced players who know maps well. Also realistically yes, some maps are balanced around 100 hp especially older ones, but also how many does it make a difference on? If it made such a difference mappers can always set it out of spawn, i.e. mako.

Also @mini I wholeheartedly disagree about new players being "too carried" by that extra 25 hp. It may give them a win, isn't that a good thing? This server is dying and needs more players, how do you make people enjoy your game? By dying more? It's one thing if it made a large difference and made players survive a lot of instakill mechanics like lasers, but it's 25 hp and allows new players to experience more maps in an easier setting while remaining almost inconsequential for more experienced players. This game isn't dark souls, and most casual players who join the game randomly probably would be more likely to come back if they could actually understand or win more maps. Just look at that one streamer who came on mako, he couldn't figure anything out, died and left. If that extra hp made him win, and kept him playing, while almost not impacting experienced players gameplay, isn't that a good thing?

We had a discussion years ago when Trapwhore / dubstep made a post saying how easy everything was for the humans, and how the game needed to be more balanced for zombies. I personally would agree and love more opportunities for counter play as a zombie in most maps, I think 99% of players, outside of the very experienced pros, would probably find that sucky. I love seeing things like the western v7 bhop into the teleport with warp and kill the team or other things, but as a new player it must suck to see. There's a balance and maps like wester, Minas, and especially paranoid hit but there's also a reason these maps can hurt the server pop.

I feel like the extra 25 hp doesn't impact your game or my gameplay, but it can impact that of a new player and if it helps them, without hurting zombie gameplay or your human gameplay why not let them have the boost? It may help keep them on the server longer.

 

[mini]

Also @mini I wholeheartedly disagree about new players being "too carried" by that extra 25 hp. It may give them a win, isn't that a good thing? This server is dying and needs more players, how do you make people enjoy your game? By dying more? It's one thing if it made a large difference and made players survive a lot of instakill mechanics like lasers, but it's 25 hp and allows new players to experience more maps in an easier setting while remaining almost inconsequential for more experienced players. This game isn't dark souls, and most casual players who join the game randomly probably would be more likely to come back if they could actually understand or win more maps. Just look at that one streamer who came on mako, he couldn't figure anything out, died and left. If that extra hp made him win, and kept him playing, while almost not impacting experienced players gameplay, isn't that a good thing?

Hi, I feel like prioritizing the playerbase we got it's the best chance we have in order to have people, other than trying to get players from other games or servers. Making the settings easy will make the new players get engaged to the game, but for what if the pro players and even regulars don't play that? Comparing it to nide, nide joins when they only see laser maps so they are irrelevant, 20 people for predator ultimate is crazy and the most maps they are playing are boring as hell.
Most of the maps played, the pro players over carry the entire teams just because they are too used in doing little effort to win and 125 hp is a minor example for that and these maps are boring to play due to being the same thing all the time. If we keep it like this and decide to make things even easier for players, it's gonna turn into a nide shenanigan event and it's hella boring.
Also, very bad comparison towards dark souls and zombie escape as they are literally different games and zombie escape is supposed to be a bit hard but intense with short, fast paced maps, while trying to make Zombie teams and Human teams both fun to play as, not on maps that nowadays require 80% of human team for 40 mins to shoot zombies in corner. THAT is not a good direction for casuals nor pro players.
Wether these small server changes are debatable for each of the players, the main point that you probably did not get is that it gets too boring for players like me and if we actually stick to a community where we get to increase the difficulty by helping the regulars then the pro players will keep playing AND new players will join if we play there, win as impressively as we can and enjoy some bit of a challenge.

It's ok to disagree, thanks for your input and have a nice day

 

[wilsonwillt]

Hi, I feel like prioritizing the playerbase we got it's the best chance we have in order to have people, other than trying to get players from other games or servers. Making the settings easy will make the new players get engaged to the game, but for what if the pro players and even regulars don't play that? Comparing it to nide, nide joins when they only see laser maps so they are irrelevant, 20 people for predator ultimate is crazy and the most maps they are playing are boring as hell.
Most of the maps played, the pro players over carry the entire teams just because they are too used in doing little effort to win and 125 hp is a minor example for that and these maps are boring to play due to being the same thing all the time. If we keep it like this and decide to make things even easier for players, it's gonna turn into a nide shenanigan event and it's hella boring.
Also, very bad comparison towards dark souls and zombie escape as they are literally different games and zombie escape is supposed to be a bit hard but intense with short, fast paced maps, while trying to make Zombie teams and Human teams both fun to play as, not on maps that nowadays require 80% of human team for 40 mins to shoot zombies in corner. THAT is not a good direction for casuals nor pro players.
Wether these small server changes are debatable for each of the players, the main point that you probably did not get is that it gets too boring for players like me and if we actually stick to a community where we get to increase the difficulty by helping the regulars then the pro players will keep playing AND new players will join if we play there, win as impressively as we can and enjoy some bit of a challenge.

It's ok to disagree, thanks for your input and have a nice day

I don't think you read my post, and if you did I don't think you understood it. I never compared it to nide, and your comparison to nide makes no point other than "i personally don't like playing with lower player counts and find nides map selection garbage".

My comparison to darksouls is solely to note the game shouldn't be super hard, and is more of a rhetorical sarcastic statement.

Also you say "it's too boring for players like me" that's entirely a you problem, and sounds rather selfish. Plenty of people have played for years and play regardless of settings, and realistically the game will keep getting played without pros, it survived a long time on just casual maps and players could always go back to it. This shouldn't be an argument as it doesn't take most players or the server into account. If you really think new players understand "impressive" zombie escape wins then I have some property on the moon to sell you. Also I never said maps should be humans shooting zombies into a corner, stop putting words in my mouth, I don't advocate for pve i very much play css and not cs2 as it's a pvp game, and look at my favorite map, lms, very much a map where play for both sides is fun and varried despite being a buggy mess. Please don't impose your perception on to me without any context.

If you're bored it's a simple solution, stop playing. There's 1000s of things to do in life and if you're hating your experience change your life but don't bitch and moan to high heaven.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your idea that increasing the difficulty will "help newer players" let's be honest more newbies join nide than unloze, and gfl died when they made their settings hard af because backy wanted a challenge years ago. Look at the player counts for any pro oriented server, they die super fast. Examples, RSS, JAZE, GFL CSS (literally died within a year when the pros made the settings harder) versus noob friendly servers like gfl csgo, n4a, mapea or nide on here. Let me give you another example, surf froyo or hard surf maps. How many players quit just because they don't know how to play? It's an accessibility issue. And before you say "they'll learn" no they won't they'll quit, try playing surf froyo with players who don't know how to surf, good luck explaining and not just having them leave. This is a relatively small game mode that most people don't take seriously as it's own game, make it accessible so they see it's beauty and depth.

Why do people on this game remember me? I haven't been active in years, and while ok at the game I'm far from Yoshmi, it's because I lead maps, tried to make things fun and tried to make the game more accessible to a lot of people. Do that and don't impose your beliefs onto people.

I dont think settings should be too easy and don't advocate for that, but if you READ AND UNDERSTOOD MY POST, you would realize I advocate for boons to new players as long as they don't impede the experience of existing players, don't make it too hard or too easy.

 

[jenz]

there is no clear strong majority here. Hence there will be an after follow up thread to human health. Ulqi and seilo's votes were not counted. As far as i can tell nobody actually suggested any new options for a follow up thread. The options will therefore be:
100 hp
125 hp

All other options were discarded for the follow up thread because of a lack of vote interest in them. The thread runs for 2 weeks and we take the majority winner. That being said we only count votes that are people who are active or at least known. The result of this follow up thread will also not take affect before 3rd january due to christmas and being busy with exams. I mean i dont mind if another dev would update the hp during my absence but if they dont it first happens 3rd jannuary.

Here is the new vote thread: https://unloze.com/threads/final-thread-on-human-health-for-2024.4089/