CT biased?

Kaczor Jan 29, 2021

  1. Middy

    Middy Awoo Fgt VIP

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    I very much remember people going with a stereotype about which server they won mako at back in the day. Servers like i3d or pF had basic CS:S settings, fall damage, 900 ammo. etc Meanwhile if you ever won anything on a server like Hellz for example, you'd be mocked at for showing any screenshot. Lmao.

    I guess we are the Hellz server today. :kappa:
     
  2. Neon

    Neon Pendulum SQ Developer

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    Just to address one point listed there, afaik there is no map where we restrict bhop on specific part where it was allowed before.
     
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  3. Middy

    Middy Awoo Fgt VIP

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    Doesn't westersand restrict bhop at specific spots?
     
  4. Neon

    Neon Pendulum SQ Developer

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    Yes but that is the map itself, that's not something WE added intentionally to make it easier.
     
  5. Middy

    Middy Awoo Fgt VIP

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    Ok that's why I asked. Can't blame you for everything now can we. :wlenny:
     
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  6. 4Echo

    4Echo Admin Admin Mapper

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    1. Off topic but other than those things you've listed what else would you see as "poor map-design"
      This is just to sate my own personal interest and what I want to "achieve" with my map Chandrila. Some of your points I've already gotten in the works but if there's anything else, please let me know.


      On-topic.


      I dislike modern ze, I dislike that 1 "stage" maps get rtv'ed as soon as there is a win. Why?
      Because ze is built on it being random, no round is the same as the other. Sure, you beat the map. But did you really play it?
      While I enjoy modern ze being more streamlined it also brings up the problem of every map being a reskin of Mako.

      Sure, people put a lot of thought into their maps trying to bring something new to the table but all everything is a reskin of what Rafuron and Kaemon did first. It turned into a proven concept, a concept that's a definite win. No mapper wants their map to be ignored or just lay on a maplist being played 1 time per 6 months.
      This creates a toxic end result. Where mappers are more occupied with their maps filling out boxes in a form (bosses, stages, items, bullshit run 30 seconds hold 30 seconds).

      There's no creativity here, you might think you're doing something new (news flash, you're not. you idiot). While you're just doing what others have done before you but just worse. Looking at you ze_alien_shooter (seriously, fuck that trend machine of a map).

      Counter argument: "weren't/aren't all old school maps just the same thing over and over again?"
      - well, yes. But all the oldschool maps were created when ze was new. It was a fresh playground for everyone, noone knew what they were doing. Dont get me wrong, what Mako did for ze was great, but it has also become a bit of a problem. Because newer maps miss the point entirely.

      I like mako in certain doses, I dont like FF maps all-together (since they're all just Mako, but worse). You might sum this up to me not having nostalgia for any Final Fantasy related stuff since I didn't play it when I was younger. Well, not really.
      To put it more clearly; you probably know me as a deadass Star Wars fan, do I enjoy ze_star_wars? no. It's the "The Last Jedi" of Star Wars maps. Good idea, but terrible execution and fuck you for relating this to Star Wars. You got Star Wars in the name, but where's the Star Wars you fucking hack?

      God I wish I could beat the bitch up, but let's move on.

      What I do like is innovation. But alas, mappers are content with creating the same shit, over and over and over again. Becoming content is the death of creativity. What are we at now, the twenty forth CoD? Yeah, it hit it's gameplay peak at MW2. Fight me.

      Problem is, what's left to innovate?
      We could probably innovate it, if we could alter the source code. But nah, it's a niche mod for an old game and all that's left of us playing it are nosteamers, 14 year olds who thing they're the shit, university students to bored to bother playing anything else and veterans who came back because of the pandemic and you couldn't go clubbing anymore (me).

      But, I wouldn't have it any other way, I still love ze alltogether, just because it's shit.


      TL;DR: Half-drunk rant, I dislike modern ze because it's just Mako, I like Mako. I dont like it's Alabama cluster of inbred cousins.
      It's CT sided because people are more concerned about creating "epic solo's/wins" rather than good gameplay.
      it's shit, but it's good shit. Get your thumb out of your arse.


      Fun fact, predator_ultimate was for a time considered to be the hardest ze map ever. Now it's won before you can pronounce "llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch"
     
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  7. TrapWHre

    TrapWHre VIP VIP

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    @4Echo I''ll name a few things from the top of my head.

    1. Make holding points that have more than one enter point for zombies. Don't just mirror/copy paste them. Give both entry points their own layout and obstacles. That way players can chose from where to approach humans. Some people like areas where they need to climb, others prefer a ramp they can bhop down on. That way you give players (to a certain extent) the opportunity to play the map the way they enjoy it the most, not the way it's dictated by you.
    2. If your map layout is designed in a way that zombies need to be teleported in order for humans to progress after they've defended long enough, don't lock up the zombies for too long unless there's a chance of humans needing multiple attempts to progress. (Think of surf maps. Players go from room to room that they need to defend in a zombiemod way, when the time is up, zms get teleported and humans can continue. Usually players need 1 or 2 tries for the surf parts so giving them more time there is fine. But if there is no such scenario, just port the zombies a little away and let them engage right away.)
    3. Make sure that you have enough zm teleports. Mako is a great example how not to do it. The entire map only has 1 teleport for each direction. One after the 10s door at first hold and then the one at the bottom of the elevator on the big prop. That is far too little. Any zombie that spawns in after CTs reached the elevator won't be able to catch up to humans. They'll be unable to get into action for as long as after the CTs are done with the boss and that's a rather long time.
    4. If your map has wide open areas such as some parts of ze_ffxii_paramina, make sure there are obstacles that directly give zombies some cover so that they can't be shot from far away. Because it's unbearably unfun having to catch up such a long distance to humans while your progress of doing so keeps getting interrupted by flying bullets. And what's most ass about it is, if you're the fastest zombie and closest to humans, you just get focused and shot for so long that even the slowest zombies have caught up with you so you were punished/not rewarded for being fast. It becomes worse when humans decide not to run straight to whatever trigger, shooting you from the distance. But rather tryhard defend the entire way. They won't have to worry about running backwards while shooting you because they can't get stuck on anything/can't fall into anything. If CTs are defending, they should always have to pay some sort of attention to their surroundings because that's what makes it exciting for both sides. ze_doom for example lacks cover in most open areas in almost every way, but the map still works because it's layout isn't so simple. It has alot of connected rooms that change skydirection every now and then and iirc some areas have deathpits you can fall into or little 2d images of monsters that damage and slow you down. So if you want to defend zombies as human from up close, you need to know the map layout or you'll get yourself killed. The map isn't perfect but it's very good at what it tries to achieve.
    5. If you don't want to give direct cover to zombies in open areas, then use different tools to at least block line of sight. ze_tesv_skyrim is a great example for it. At the first stage when you need to run to helgen, there's a very long path through the woods at the start. You don't really infect anyone as zombie but that doesn't matter, because 1) it's a very wide area so you cannot endlessly cover it as humans 2) it offers trees, rocks, bushes as line-of-sight blockers, 3) it uses displacements to further reduce vision to zombies and gives them the chance to bhop and 4) it has some props on the ground you can get stuck on, such as a log from a tree. All of it combined works really well because even though the area is very open, humans can't shoot you from within helgen, their only option to shoot you is if they are with you in the woods where they are exposed to their surroundings. So while as zombie, you're not really infecting anyone, you are still given the feeling of being dominant because you're pressuring humans and don't let them fuck around with you.
    6. Don't make your map too item dependent. There are some maps where people call for !slays just because an important item died. I know it's probably not easy but try to find a way that makes your map playable with and without items. See mako for example. If fall damage is on and heal is alive, everyone is bhopping down the core recklessly because they'll get healed after. But if there is no heal they'll need to take a different approach and be more careful with their hp while additional defending is needed.
    7. Don't put RNG in your map like the meteors on ze_lotr_minas_tirith.
    8. If your map has different stages and gives humans levels to obtain different items such as Gandalf or White Knight, don't make the items have too much of a powergap. If I am level 2 on minas and die while humans finish a level that would've given me level 3, I'm gonna be fucking pissed because I want gandalf as it's so damn strong. If level 3 had items only slightly better then it wouldn't be as bad. If your map has leveled items then you could simply make it so the items are always the same, but instead get stronger depending on the players level that picked up the item. (Think of the ammo barrel or oil vase in ze_lotr_minas_tirith, could make it so if a player with 2 levels grabs it, it's 5s unlimited ammo and 1 pool of oil, if a level 3 player picks it it becomes 7s ammo and 2 pools). Nobody will be upset about losing a round not getting another level because they can still pick up whatever and make use of it.
    9. Some maps do fantastic jobs with implementing SFX and I endorse everyone to do the same because I think it's way underestimated. Can be any sound clue that gives you hints about triggers and map progress. Like mako for example has that little beat drop that has established itself to be a good time to use ultima. When the 10s door after the bridge is trigg ered the music changes, letting humans know it's time to fall back. SFX can do magic on some maps. The music in predator_ultimate can be used to time a telehop. The music changes, you count to 6 and walk into the transporter. Look at FierceG's video.

    It's nearly impossible to make your map and actively trying to create opportunities like these. But you can implement things that help players eventually discover them. The music in this case is a tool that was used years after the release of the map to find new ways of playing it. It adds replayability.

    I'll add more if I can think of any.
    Really cool you take advice. Wish you the best for your map.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
  8. The Q-man

    The Q-man Well-Known User

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    "Look at FierceG's video"
     
  9. Malala 2

    Malala 2 User Member

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    It's 0 ping that does that.
    pF also had no bhop and pF had 2k ammo eventually.
    The no rebuys was due to an exploit more than anything I believe.
    Supreme Elite has it for both humans and Zms, it makes bhop far too easy.
     
  10. TrapWHre

    TrapWHre VIP VIP

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    What exactly does 0 ping do?
    pF had bhop, it was just a punishable offense. But people did it regardless. pF had no rebuys at the time I played.
    And Supreme elite only had a jump speed boost for motherzm when I played which was years ago like 2013.
     
  11. Moltard

    Moltard Developer Developer Mapper

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    0 ping made it so physic objects (boss moving) position is correct for every player. it's like if you played on lan with 0 ping, what you see is what you get. so if you shoot where you see the boss, your shot will actually hit.
    before, a high ping would make it so that when you shot, the boss was no longer there, so you didnt hit it
     
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  12. TrapWHre

    TrapWHre VIP VIP

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    Oh, but that wasn't my point. Bahamht doesn't register hits everywhere. Hit markers told players where he does.
     
  13. Moltard

    Moltard Developer Developer Mapper

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    in mako v5, we fixed the hitbox a year ago. it's now a big box around the model, so you no longer need to shoot shoulders.

    the boss hp were also rescaled accordingly
     
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  14. Kaka

    Kaka Admin Admin VIP

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    I fail to see why player feedback is a bad thing when it comes to bosses. It's especially needed for the ones that doesnt make any sound when taking damage or has wonky hitboxes
     
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  15. TrapWHre

    TrapWHre VIP VIP

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    I wouldn't consider it a bad thing either but the bosses were balanced for a time where overall damage was lower as players didn't all know where to shoot. Now that everybody does, damage has gone up and they've become much easier.

    You had players shooting bosses at areas hits aren't registered, or they were shooting their past location because 0 ping wasn't a thing. Now the damage has gone up but I doubt all bosses have had hp adjusted.
     
  16. Malala 2

    Malala 2 User Member

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    pF would've disabled bhop if it had the command, currently bhop is disabled on pF, as for rebuys yeah they have been disabled for as long as anyone can remember.
    It's alive again but both cts get the boost and you can bhop insanely easily getting 400+ everytime without a sweat.
     
  17. Moltard

    Moltard Developer Developer Mapper

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    pF no rebuy and limited ammo is no longer viable. too many maps where you would run out of ammo (even back then it was tight with some maps)
     
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  18. Glacius

    Glacius The Frosty One Developer

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    [​IMG]

    Lets just remove all plugins and play Vanilla ZE
     
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  19. Bl@ke

    [email protected] Admin Admin

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    Zombie Escape Classic, coming out this summer
     
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  20. vinto

    vinto /420\ From Weed garden /420\ VIP

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    I think the end word is that nobody can have the answer and this is a question you have to put forward each years, as new players come slowly (time to time).

    Players don't want the same things and you'll never find something good for everyone.
    I suggest making a poll with a list of settings changes and see what peoples want at the moment.

    Poll which have to be launch again each years.
     
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