Possible Grenade Change?!

[Neon]

Wazzup!
Since failnades got removed many players (including me) do not really enjoy playing as a zombie anymore.
The thing I hate the most about playing as ZM is being constantly on fire.
I thought about some changes and the Push-Nades from Sonaki came into my mind. I cant remember exactly how they work, so I tried to recreate something similar.

So what would exactly change?
First of all, Grenades would net the set the ZM on fire anymore or the duration would be drastically decreased.

But in exchange for that, damaging a ZM with a HE-Grenade would push them away from you. It doesnt matter if your Grenade would explode in front, behind, on top, etc. of the zombie. He would always get pushed exactly away from you.
Basically if you draw a line between you and the ZM into infinity at the moment of the explosion the ZM would get pushed back along that line.


Let me know what you think about this idea! Doesn't matter if you like it or you think it is complete bullshit. JUST LET ME KNOW HERE IN THIS TOPIC!

If the feedback is positive I would probably do a testing perioid and after that a poll.

 

[u egg]

I like changes, from little we tested it seemed to work and guarantee absolutly no failnade shenanigans, while still being useful. Maybe tweaking with the amount of nades available per round can make it better as well, I'm just giving ideas.

Though it just came into my mind you can basically teamkill if you happen to throw a nade when you're behind zombies... and it could be really easier than a on-purpose failnade. Am I thinking wrong there?

 

[Lambda]

Ive seen some servers do the push grenade, but the zombies go in the air (CSGO). Which is not a problem apart from when you throw to zombies below and they can infect you.

Pushing back seems better.

But I dont mind fire nades, as long as the regen is quicker .

 

[D()G@N]

Whats the value of the push, the knockback?

Also tbh this sounds pretty dumb, I prefer to keep fire nades. I mentioned already few times to reduce the burn-time as balance to make it more interesting for zombies. 5 seconds is god damn long (i think it’s 5 seconds). Also I mentioned to increase the hp regen, because it’s way too easy to kill zombies.

I prefer these 2 changes to make it more attractive for zombies instead of removing fire nades.

 

[Tom]

That's an interesting idea. But...

But in exchange for that, damaging a ZM with a HE-Grenade would push them away from you. It doesnt matter if your Grenade would explode in front, behind, on top, etc. of the zombie. He would always get pushed exactly away from you.

It's too easy, imo. A zombie should be pushed away only when the grenade explodes between you and the zombie but if it explodes behind the zombie, the player is not pushed forward to you, he just stops for a second and then keeps moving. That would protect the others from failnades and would make it harder because people will analyze the trajectory before throwing the nade instead of mindlessly throwing it somewhere. So the nade exploded behind the zombie, it means that the grenade was almost entirely wasted, because the effect was not full.
Also the distance of the push should depend on how close the explosion was - the closer to the zombie, the better. However, it shouldn't be too much, because a zombie can increase the speed by bhopping and then can rotate and kill you. It's not a failnade because it depends on the zombie's skill, but should we really give this advantage?
Moreover, it will help to eliminate the stuck elites. If someone in the corner drops a nade on the floor (in the very corner, probably), the zombies (at least, some of them) are pushed, making it easier for the others to kill the CTs.

 

[xen]

Keep in mind that sonaki forced a high air accelerate in pretty much every map so zombies would be able to strafe around, making the nades somewhat risky.

 

[D3J4de]

Best way is to lower the duration of fire to like 2 seconds and increase the knockback a bit more. Then you have a good balance of nades being useful, while punishing shit nades by giving the zombies a hefty boost forward.

 

[Neon]

Whats the value of the push, the knockback?

It is not a simple knockback value, like in Zombie Reloaded. If you really interested, a Velocity-Vector with the length of 800 in the specific direction gets applied. But that value would be easy to change with a cvar on the fly.

Keep in mind that sonaki forced a high air accelerate in pretty much every map so zombies would be able to strafe around, making the nades somewhat risky.

Well right now, nades have 0 KB (literally 0) and only set on fire. So everything is more risky than it is right now xD

Best way is to lower the duration of fire to like 2 seconds and increase the knockback a bit more. Then you have a good balance of nades being useful, while punishing shit nades by giving the zombies a hefty boost forward.

Also sounds like a good possible option.

 

[Neon]

[...]A zombie should be pushed away only when the grenade explodes between you and the zombie but if it explodes behind the zombie, the player is not pushed forward to you, he just stops for a second and then keeps moving. [...]

Also the distance of the push should depend on how close the explosion was - the closer to the zombie, the better[...]

Both things are possible to implement.

 

[Backy]

As someone who's favorite server was Sonaki, I can safely say that these nades are fun to play with but there are several caveats.

First of all, like xen said, if used properly, these can be completely overpowered if chained together or used at certain places or in certain ways by experienced individuals.

Here is an example of them being used properly by an old Korean player:

That leads me to my second point, these can also be EXTREMELY fun. I know that a lot of players on this server like bhop and (I hope) that they like feeling like they have a chance as a zombie to counter-play using acquired skills. Basically, there are absolutely no ways to counter-play these grenades on the normal 10 air_accelerate. It is just not possible with how pushes work (you all know this). But like xen also said, on Sonaki, the air_accelerate was usually at 1337 for the casual or race maps, and 150 for the medium-hard maps. Only the very hardest of maps kept 10 air_accelerate.

Also, take into account that the grenades were only balanced there because the knock-back on the zombies was about half of what we have on Unloze/GFL and the Zombies could bhop like maniacs (you essentially could barely hold 1 zombie alone, let alone more unless you were extremely proficient so you basically needed the nades at some hold points).

Here is an example of the same Korean player as a zombie using these grenades and some strafing skills to counter-play the grenades when they are not stacked properly:

Note: air_accelerate is 1337 (yes even on Westersand), but they compensated by having sv_enablebunnyhopping 0 on almost all maps.

I hope this gives you all an example regarding how such a change would turn out. If the 2nd clip scared you then don't worry. That maneuver can only be performed semi-consistently by the top .01% of players with practice. Also, the hardest of maps wouldn't have the air_accelerate so high. This setting would really spice up game-play on casual/race maps and previous hard maps that are now easy (Mako, Wester, etc.).

One final thing to take into account is that Sonaki mother zombies had a jump boost and could bhop extremely easily. Like I said earlier, Sonaki had bhop_0 for all maps (unless forced on by map), so it encouraged strafing and surfing seeing as touching the ground with too high of a speed from a grenade would just reset it. They also allowed for many grenade rebuys, and the previous 1/2 knock-back I mentioned. I'm not sure what exactly made these style of grenades work on their server (maybe it was a combination of many things), but take all of this into account.

I would be all for this or some similar change, in fact I was just asking around for how to set these nades up for a GFL event since I miss this server so much. An implementation such as these nades will need heavy balancing and trial and error though. If anyone has any questions about this, feel free to ask me. I'm also more than happy to help test them to give you all pointers for possible exploits or to get the 'feel' right.

 

[jenz]

*proceeds to write an very long and thoughtfull post regarding the topic*

 

[Schicksal]

Fire nades were always a big deal in ze. The first time I joined pF and saw it had fire nades I instantly left the server. On almost every map that is a stage map nowadays there is always at least one item that is called "Fire" which serves its purpose. When people were smart enough and backpaddled while using the fire nades on speed maps it also became way to easy. Those nades definitely made the whole mode easier. I totally support Backys idea and we shouldnt definitely just change the fire burning ratio to "2seconds".

 

[Hollow Knight]

A zombie should be pushed away only when the grenade explodes between you and the zombie but if it explodes behind the zombie, the player is not pushed forward to you, he just stops for a second and then keeps moving. That would protect the others from failnades and would make it harder because people will analyze the trajectory before throwing the nade instead of mindlessly throwing it somewhere.

If people haven't learnt that from failnades yet, so why would your idea work? People can't learn on mistakes, if there are no conseqeunces.

Best way is to lower the duration of fire to like 2 seconds and increase the knockback a bit more. Then you have a good balance of nades being useful, while punishing shit nades by giving the zombies a hefty boost forward.

It reminds me of those shitty MOBA developers, who usually change only numbers to balance their games and it ends in a reverse result to the intended one every time. This type of games is a cancer in the world of video games, but it's a different story.

Why do you all think it's unbalanced? Zombie Escape is a very dynamic game. Very often it is difficult to predict the outcome of the game. It's because teams are not always the same. Maps don't become easy or hard out of nowhere, they don't change magically. The difficulty of the map depends on many factors. Server settings have the least importance, because the difficulty of the map depends mainly on the players (it can be easy for one, but it doesn't mean, that it will be easy for others). Playing the same maps all the time increases the number of wins, you can't blame grenades for that. Nevertheless I would keep grenades only for bossfights and for nothing else. Basic weapons are enough in my opinion. Besides, somehow I don't see the huge advantage of humans over zombies, rather the opposite.

And by the way, the main goal of the game is victory of humans, zombies are just an addition, don't forget about it. Also damn long maps have nothing to do with difficulty. You can't call it hard, but more like time-consuming. More time needed to complete the game = more humans are infected by zombies = longer gameplay. That's why I like stage based maps - it shortens the gameplay.

 

[Neon]

Maps without Failnades have the new Push-Nades now and Napalm got removed for a testing period. Maybe I will decrease the ZM speed a bit because of the Napalm removal.

 

[Gee Ef Ell Mustard Race]

sounds gey

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

Whats the value of the push, the knockback?

Also tbh this sounds pretty dumb, I prefer to keep fire nades. I mentioned already few times to reduce the burn-time as balance to make it more interesting for zombies. 5 seconds is god damn long (i think it’s 5 seconds). Also I mentioned to increase the hp regen, because it’s way too easy to kill zombies.

I prefer these 2 changes to make it more attractive for zombies instead of removing fire nades.

We know you want to keep fire nades, maybe its time you look to the ppl who voted no? if they all decide to leave unloze for other grounds cos there the server is not ruled by a few preferred people but on basis of what the majority wants maybe then you will think twice.

that said, its another topic, again about nades, made by someone else... maybe you guys should start thinking 'hej.. we really need to work on this as its clearly upsetting ppl'.
i've seen popular disco's diminish cos the owners didn't want to listen to the feedback of their customers, just so you know.

 

[Neon]

Since people did not know when failnades are actually enabled and when not I added some visual hints:

Failnade: Nade has RED Trail
Pushnade: Nade has GREEN Trail
Freezenade: Nade has BLUE Trail

 

[FinalChaos/Simona(mmo) ♡]

And by the way, the main goal of the game is victory of humans, zombies are just an addition, dont forget about it. Also damn long maps have nothing to do with difficulty. You can't call it hard, but more like time-consuming. More time needed to complete the game = more humans are infected by zombies = longer gameplay. That's why I like stage based maps - it shortens the gameplay.

I have to totally disagree with you. Zombies are not just an addition. They are the core of the game. Without zombies, without their efforts being put in (which are often way more efforts than lazy humans) you would have no game at all. no fun. Imagine running all the way trough maps, like boat escape, like atix, any map really without even having to fire your weapon. that is what will happen with such mindset.

This game is not called zombi escape for nothing.......

 

[Hollow Knight]

You misunderstood me. I didn't say, that zombies don't matter at all. I just wanted to point out, that their role is not the most important, especially when we talk about maps' endings. You don't change the map after first win of zombies. You keep playing, until humans win. In this aspect, zombies have nothing to say, they play a greater role in other situations.

Zombies put more effort, because most players usually want to become humans as fast as possible.

 

[Kaby]

The new nades are kinda op tbh, we played lms yesterday and zm never had a chance to get a single human, as long as we had those nades, means zm cant use the grenade push for themself. The only round i saw a failnade was when a human was behind all the zm and throwed his nade, that actually launched the zm forward. So for me the nades are kinda op, and since most maps are more human than zm friendly i would like to change those nades again. #justmy2cents